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Getting Thai nationality


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#1 kamikaze

Posted 03 November 2008 - 07:24 AM

I found this little gem posted by a young Brit on the Bangkok Post's forum. Do you think he'll get Thai nationality?

What I am asking.

I don't take no for an answer and I will work hard to get whatever I want. No task is too large and I am a believer that one can achieve anything they want, with the right amounts of effort. I would like to know what is the process of becoming a Thai national?

and if there is no process, where do I start? If i have to write to the monarch or government on a daily basis, then that is what I will do. I just need some direction, even if you can point me towards a Thai address or Thai website... government office etc. I will follow it up.

Why do I want to do it?

A badge of honour!


#2 yohan

Posted 03 November 2008 - 08:29 AM

Maybe a good question to start would be to ask

'for what reason do I need Thai nationality?'

and another question would be

'what is wrong with my own nationality?'

because most countries worldwide are not supportive to dual nationality.

I see little advantage for EU foreigners to look out for Thai nationality, as there is no reason...

Same is true with Japanese nationality, it's not that easy to get it, but most foreigners who qualify are not interested and prefer to continue with long-term visa and permanent resident permits.

Same can be said about Philippines...

#3 tambok

Posted 09 November 2008 - 07:45 PM

It will allow them to own land and run businesses without local partners. W/o it, it is also hard to qualify for any job other than English teaching. With it, doors will open.  He has his reasons.

In the PI most people do not care I guess because few do business/work there and in Japan, ESL jobs pay well.

So, where does he start? let's stay on topic.

#4 zaphodbeeblebrox

Posted 09 November 2008 - 07:58 PM

View Postyohan, on 2008-11-03 15:29:56, said:

'what is wrong with my own nationality?'

If you were American, this would be easy to answer.  :lol:

I believe you can only attain permanent resident status in Thailand and that a foreigner cannot become a Thai national.  There is quite a bit of info on TV for applying for permanent resident status.

#5 กำนัน

Posted 09 November 2008 - 08:42 PM

There is also solid information on OE regarding permanent residency, if you'd care to look.
BTW a foreigner CAN gain Thai citizenship and I don't understand why you would think otherwise... but there's lots of paperwork and time involved of course.

#6 Captain Chaos

Posted 09 November 2008 - 11:08 PM

According to the law you can, but since Sep 2006 I don't know of any being granted - it can only be done by the relevant minister of the government - and the junta always claimed it was only an interim administration so they put all citizenship applications on hold, and since the PPP govt was elected I just haven't heard of any being done - friend of mine has had PR for 10 years + now and had had his citizenship application finally approved just before the coup - now he can't get anywhere!

CC

#7 yohan

Posted 10 November 2008 - 02:39 PM

Quote

(yohan @ 2008-11-03 15:29:56)
'what is wrong with my own nationality?'

View Postzaphodbeeblebrox, on 2008-11-10 04:58:41, said:

If you were American, this would be easy to answer.  :lol:
There is NO good reason to trade in the US-citizenship for the Thai citizenship.

There is good reason however to trade in the Thai citizenship for the US-citizenship.

Still, if you have the choice, better be American than Thai, even if there are shortcomings in the US.

It's good advice to improve your citizenship status from Thai (USD 3400,- capita/year) with the US citizenship (USD 38000,- per year), same with UK/EU countries, or Japan.

Of course if you are from Myanmar or Bangladesh, you would take any chance to become a Thai citizen, it's simply said out of economic reason.

It's easy to travel around with an US-passport or EU-passport, it's not the same easy situation for a Thai national.

View Posttambok, on 2008-11-10 04:45:43, said:

It will allow them to own land and run businesses without local partners. W/o it, it is also hard to qualify for any job other than English teaching. With it, doors will open.  He has his reasons.

In the PI most people do not care I guess because few do business/work there and in Japan, ESL jobs pay well.

So, where does he start? let's stay on topic.
It is wrong to see only advantages, as disadvantages are clearly existing.

For example, if you become a Thai national, as a male, you would be subject immediately to Thai military services for many months, for very little compensation in return.

Another disadvantage is the ability to travel to developed countries, Thai nationals are often subject to very strict visa regulations and frequently rejected entry.

ertirement options are rather limited, as you will have problems to earn the same in Thailand as you do in the Western world. How much is the retirement allowance in Europe for UK citizens, compared with a Thai government employee?

For a very short time it sounds nice to be in Thailand as a Thai national, but I doubt for how long...

#8 กำนัน

Posted 10 November 2008 - 02:43 PM

View Postyohan, on 2008-11-10 21:30:21, said:

There is NO good reason to trade in the US-citizenship for the Thai citizenship.

There is good reason however to trade in the Thai citizenship for the US-citizenship.
There are many reasons for a foreigner to obtain Thai citizenship (without relinquishing their origin nationality - and would it be a trade?) if you want to escape the banker/teacher trap. It's a question of examining your location and needs... and if you're in Thailand, isn't it obvious?

#9 yohan

Posted 10 November 2008 - 03:35 PM

View PostMandrunk, on 2008-11-10 23:43:02, said:

There are many reasons for a foreigner to obtain Thai citizenship (without relinquishing their origin nationality - and would it be a trade?) if you want to escape the banker/teacher trap. It's a question of examining your location and needs... and if you're in Thailand, isn't it obvious?
How to do this?

Dual citizenship is not appreciated by most countries worldwide without a serious reason, like for minors born out of marriage with a local/foreigner, people born on the other side of the border with relatives in the own country (like Muslims along Thai-Malaysia border and such considerations), or Japanese born overseas and the follow-up next generation and such circumstances.

What might be your argument for the DUAL nationality?

Expect the former nationality for an 'ordinary' immigrant to be 'suspended', and if you want it back, you need a time-consuming procedure to regain it again by 'suspending' the one, you are using now.

In Thailand, as I said before, should you be male, and I think, younger than 45 (?), expect to be subject immediately for military services over many months against very little pay, dual citizenship or not. - I heard however, against paying a certain amount of money, you might pay off this obligation.

My own case (not Thailand however) is legally clear: Japanese citizenship anytime - EU (Austria) citizenship gone...

For my children, as they are now already adults, the legal situation is similar, they made the Japanese choice and the EU (Austria) citizenship is now 'suspended'.

UK is following very similar guidelines to EU, and I see no reason, why a UK citizen should be granted Thai nationality without suspension of the UK-citizenship.

It seems, even Thaksin's family failed to 'buy' into dual nationality of UK/Thai - this would be the best guarantee, not to be arrested and deported back to Thailand and to stay in UK forever.

Dual nationality was used by Fujimori, former Peruvian president (he had it, he was not even not fully aware of it, but he was registered in Japan as a child of a married Japanese couple overseas as far as I know) - as long as he was in Japan, he could not be arrested and deported back to Peru even in case of criminal charges.

Fisher, the Chessmaster, was another example of dual nationality to avoid deportation despite criminal charges, he was US-citizen and deported by Japan to Iceland (as he became Iceland citizen), despite the request of the US, to deport him back to United States.
Fisher's request for German citizenship (his father was German) was rejected, and also the Japanese citizenship was rejected (despite he married a Japanese woman during spending months in a Japanese prison before facing deportation).

Edited by yohan, 10 November 2008 - 03:45 PM.


#10 Nordlys

Posted 10 November 2008 - 04:21 PM

I've failed to see what your arugument supports.  If you're saying dual citizenship is impossible, it's often not, with a few exceptions like China, regardless it is unappreciated or discouraged.  As to Japan you're only required to "declare" one or the other.  You're required to renounce your Japanese citizenship if you declare yourself a citizen of the other, but delcaring yourself Japanese does not make it an automatic forfeiture of your another citizenship.  I've never heard of a single reported case of any Japanese citizen who was coerced into renouncing another citizenship due to having chosen Japanese.  As for me I have dual Japanese/Thai citizenships.  I wasn't required to choose one as I was born before the amendment of the citizenship act (Japan), but it doesn't make any difference to me one way or the other.  I can retain both whether or not I was required to comply with the citizenship act.  BTW how does a country "suspend" a citizenship?  

View PostMandrunk, on 2008-11-10 21:43:02, said:

if you want to escape the banker/teacher trap.

I think I know what you mean.  My Thai citizenship gives me unrestricted choice of occupation in Thailand, but then I'd rather be in the country of my another citizenship than here if I have to take up a job as a cab/truck driver (or any other blue collar job).

#11 yohan

Posted 10 November 2008 - 06:07 PM

View PostNordlys, on 2008-11-11 01:21:01, said:

.....declaring yourself Japanese does not make it an automatic forfeiture of your another citizenship.
I've never heard of a single reported case of any Japanese citizen who was coerced into renouncing another citizenship due to having chosen Japanese.
Nordlys,
If a law is executed firmly or in lenient way, does not mean that it does not exist.

Quote

Japanese Nationality Law
Article 11.
A Japanese national shall lose Japanese nationality when he or she acquires a foreign nationality by his or her own choice.

Quote

Article 14.
A Japanese national having a foreign nationality shall choose either of the nationalities before he or she reaches twenty two years of age if he or she has acquired both nationalities on and before the day when he or she reaches twenty years of age or, within two years after the day when he or she acquired the second nationality if he or she acquired such nationality after the day when he or she reached twenty years of age.
2. Choice of Japanese nationality shall be made either by depriving himself or herself of the foreign nationality or by the declaration provided for in the Family Registration Law in which he or she swears that he or she chooses to be a Japanese national and that he or she renounces the foreign nationality (hereinafter referred to as “declaration of choice ”).

Quote

Article 15.
The Minister of Justice may, by written notice, require a Japanese national having a foreign nationality who fails to choose Japanese nationality within the period prescribed in paragraph 1 of the last preceding Article to choose one of the nationalities he or she possesses.
...............
3. The person to whom the notice has been sent in accordance with the preceding two paragraphs shall lose Japanese nationality at the expiration of one month after the day he or she receives the notice, unless he or she chooses Japanese nationality within such period...

Source: Ministry of Justice, Japan
http://www.moj.go.jp...ion/tnl-01.html

In Japanese Law it is possible to require you to make a choice in case of dual citizenship and if you refuse to make a choice, the Japanese nationality might be lost.
I know, the Japanese government does not really care much about, as long as there are no problems, but this is another matter.

About this topic, THAI law might be different in case of an UK-citizen. I don't know - but I do not think so.

#12 kamikaze

Posted 10 November 2008 - 11:07 PM

View Postyohan, on 2008-11-10 23:35:46, said:

UK is following very similar guidelines to EU, and I see no reason, why a UK citizen should be granted Thai nationality without suspension of the UK-citizenship.
UK citizenship is not suspended when you take on another citizenship. It's no problem at all for the British authorities.

#13 Captain Chaos

Posted 10 November 2008 - 11:12 PM

View Postyohan, on 2008-11-11 02:07:25, said:

About this topic, THAI law might be different in case of an UK-citizen. I don't know - but I do not think so.


No, but UK law is, and therein lies an advantage - you are required to give up your foreign passport before you can be issued a Thai passport, ID card etc. However for the Brits at least, this is not the same as relinquishing your citizenship. You simply wait a while and then go the British Embassy and apply for a new passport on the basis that the old one has been lost. Maybe this is just a technical difference but it is effective nonetheless. I know a couple of guys living in BKK with 'dual' UK & Thai nationality - or perhaps I should say holding two passports.

NB. You MUST make sure you have all the relevant UK birth documentation for this to work!

CC

#14 TizMe

Posted 11 November 2008 - 12:29 PM

View Postcamerata, on 2008-11-11 07:07:20, said:

UK citizenship is not suspended when you take on another citizenship. It's no problem at all for the British authorities.
Same, same for Australia.

#15 yohan

Posted 11 November 2008 - 01:45 PM

View PostCaptain Chaos, on 2008-11-11 08:12:01, said:

I know a couple of guys living in BKK with 'dual' UK & Thai nationality - or perhaps I should say holding two passports.
How did these men from UK get the THAI nationality? Or at least, how does an UK citizen get a THAI passport?


View PostTizMe, on 2008-11-11 21:29:03, said:

Same, same for Australia.
I do not know enough about Australia, but it seems, 'dual citizenship' is a new law, since only 6 years...
and a lost Australian Citizenship can be resumed again only since 2007.

http://www.southern-...itizenship.html

Quote

Can Australian Citizens Now become Dual Citizens?

..... after 53 years in force, the infamous Section 17 was finally repealed with effect from 4 April 2002. This means that if you naturalize in another country on or after 4 April 2002, you do not automatically forfeit your Australian citizenship under Australian law. Australian law now allows dual citizenship, as do the laws of many other countries (e.g. the US, Canada, the UK, New Zealand, Ireland.)

Quote

Have You Unwittingly Lost Your Australian Citizenship?

If you acquired another citizenship as an adult on or after 26 January 1949 and before 4 April 2002, then you automatically forfeited your Australian citizenship under the old Section 17 of the Australian Citizenship Act 1948. For example, if you naturalized in another country (e.g. the UK, Ireland, Canada, the US) between those dates, then you lost your Australian citizenship. Also, people who registered as Irish citizens on the basis of having an Irish-born grandparent between those dates will have lost their Australian citizenship. Loss occured automatically under Australian law, even if you didn't know you were losing your Australian citizenship, and even if the Australian authorities had no knowledge of you taking the other citizenship. Often minor children lost their Australian citizenship simultaneously under the old Section 23 when the adult parent lost under Section 17.

Quote

If you have lost your Australian citizenship, it is not the end of the world. In almost every case you will be able to resume it under the 2007 Act. If you've lost your Australian citizenship but still happen to have an Australian passport which on its face is still valid, you must stop using that passport.


#16 kamikaze

Posted 11 November 2008 - 02:01 PM

Actually, the question "Do you think he'll get Thai nationality?" in my OP was a joke. The guy thinks he can hassle the king or the government into giving him citizenship, and he says he wants it as a "badge of honour." WTF? For PR and citizenship they are looking for people who (among other thing) respect Thai culture and can fit in to a reasonable extent. They'd see this guy coming a mile away.

Anyway, the normal route theses days is 3 years on a 1-year visa to get PR and then another 5 years with PR before applying for citizenship, followed by a 2-year wait for the results. I doubt this guy would have the patience.

And what's honorable about having Thai citizenship?  :lol:

#17 yohan

Posted 11 November 2008 - 02:40 PM

View Postcamerata, on 2008-11-11 08:07:20, said:

UK citizenship is not suspended when you take on another citizenship. It's no problem at all for the British authorities.
Yes, you are right, UK citizens are allowed to take dual nationality since 1948.
Not everywhere in Europe laws are like that however.
----------
About my own country, any Austrian citizen who acquires another citizenship by voluntary action automatically loses Austrian citizenship. Denmark also, same rule.
----------
If you know anywhere on the internet a good information/summery about THAI Nationality Law, please let me know. I did not find anything...






View Postcamerata, on 2008-11-11 23:01:35, said:

Anyway, the normal route theses days is 3 years on a 1-year visa to get PR and then another 5 years with PR before applying for citizenship, followed by a 2-year wait for the results. I doubt this guy would have the patience.

And what's honorable about having Thai citizenship?  :lol:
Yes, but the true point in this posting maybe is, that Thailand does not offer much information andis not willing to offer Thai nationality easily - maybe they are worried about immigrants from Myanmar, China and such countries.

Even information/execution about long-term or permanent residence status is vague and is granted obviously against money and good luck at random...

Other countries - not only in Europe - are much better in regulating such legal inquiries about citizenship/dual citizenship/permanent residence etc... There are clear guidelines to follow, but in Thailand, there are so many foreigners, and immigration rules (and most other legal affairs too) are more or less arbitrary.

#18 Captain Chaos

Posted 11 November 2008 - 11:00 PM

View Postyohan, on 2008-11-11 21:45:57, said:

How did these men from UK get the THAI nationality? Or at least, how does an UK citizen get a THAI passport?


View Postcamerata, on 2008-11-11 22:01:35, said:

Anyway, the normal route theses days is 3 years on a 1-year visa to get PR and then another 5 years with PR before applying for citizenship, followed by a 2-year wait for the results. I doubt this guy would have the patience.


In both cases it is pretty much what Camerata said - but the time scales were longer - they were both in Thailand longer than 3 years before applying for PR, and they both had PR longer than 5 years before getting citizenship sorted out. One of them worked for a large multinational company, one of them founded his own company - so they are both wealthy individuals, paying lots of tax and employing lots of Thais...


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