Thailand could have been so much better

I was chatting in the shoutbox briefly about this. What has Thailand achieved in the last few decades? I know the country has come a long way, so please help me list the advances Thailand has made in terms of economics, infrastructure and society...

In my opinion, Thailand has largely squandered it's economic good fortune over recent decades. The country could have pulled itself out of third world status. It's had the investment, tourist numbers, and sheer good luck to boost itself into being a modern, dynamic country with solid infrastructure, education system and socially mobile populace...

Instead, we have a regressive government, broken footpaths (where there are footpaths), crumbling road surfaces... I mean, just look at the new road from Bangkok to Pattaya... the whole length of it bounces up and down due to subsidence and it's barely a year old. Why can't they even build a straight, level road surface?... I'll tell you, it's because of contractors skimming money (probably enough to set their family up for life from a road project) and buying substandard materials... so we have bouncy, wobbly roads.

Suvarnabhumi airport... jeez, do I really need to get started on that joke? There are countless examples of wasted money, graft, cronyism, theft, murder, poor governance... every time I drive down Viphavadhi/Rangsit, I don't know whether I should laugh or cry at the Hopewell Pillars.

I drove to Chiang Rai this morning. It's only 12 kilometres away, but I saw two road accidents. In fact, there are the outlines of bodies spray painted onto the road, only recently added... such is the state of road safety in this country i.e. any idiot can get a driver's license and drive while p*ssed with apparent impunity... basic road safety doesn't exist... for example...

Red light = stop
Green light = go

... they just don't get it.

I fear the Thai people (most of which are still baking under a corrugated iron roof on a clay floor) have missed their opportunity. Thailand is on the cusp of going backwards as investors look for new sweethearts... and tourism flounders, losing out to regional neighbours.

Thailand could have been so much better by now...

See also: Even for a nation of thieves it's never too late

The worst part of it is that the future does not look good.

In the realm of Thai politics 'kreng jai' for the people is a distant myth.

The grammar of the post title is a bit gloomy. There probably is a bright future, but it's a long way off.

This is not really about the future... I want to know how Thailand police, politicos and military elite lack even basic accountability. Thailand is economically pivotal for the region... why hasn't it attained a more advanced status? If you want to talk about the future, I fail to see how the country can advance with these basic hinderances.

If it's not about the future? Well, then the country has completely squandered valuable human and natural resources. I think human the most. The country is literate (they can read and write Thai), but much of the populous does not realize how badly they have been and are being used by their leaders. One of the most pressing issues for my future is the prospect of having a child here and deciding whether to enroll the child in a Thai school. I'm fairly certain I won't have the money for an international school. Would I want my child to be educated in a system that totally brainwashes its children with pure nationalism to uphold nation, monarchy and religion, and be educated through rote learning? The thought is unsettling. The paradox of the failure is that this is where it all began; the 'education' of the children.

Mandrunk, on 2009-02-27 00:11:56, said:

It can't.

The ridiculousness is apparent today. Look at Abhisit. He is a highly educated man who has no control over any aspect of the country he has been appointed to oversee. It surprises me that he was willing to accept this job. As a Thai I wonder how he can maintain any modicum of 'face' being given the job without any mandate of the majority. Seeing Samak outmaneuver him for the win was quite hilarious actually. I believe Thaksin had Samak go in because he knew Samak was an unsavory character, yet he was still able to win. It was a huge loss of face to the elite faction. I'm straying off topic.

This post has been edited by mbk: 27 February 2009 - 01:39 AM

I'd be curious to hear thoughts on why countries like Korea, Singapore or China have made immesnse advances over the past few decades, while Thailand has not.

When I was in the Philippines, a Korean friend told me, "Korea used to be like this 30 or 40 years ago." He went on to explain how they made so many incredible advances in a short time. I am in Korea now and I am amazed by what I see everyday. Clean, safe, colorful and the most impressive technology I have ever seen in my life. I thought we had it all in California, but seeing someone standing on the street corner video chatting on their cell phone changed my mind.

teruchan, on 2009-02-28 15:28:06, said:

Like Mandrunk stated in his first post, it is largely selfishness. There is a Thai term called 'gin muang' which literally means 'eating the nation.' Thai politicians, the police, the military and civil servants are so preoccupied with enriching themselves at the expense of the well being of the citizens, that it has severely retarded forward progress. It is a vast pyramid of corruption that has an untouchable top. In effect the people themselves are to blame for this regression because they obediently accept it, and participate in it on a daily basis even knowing in the back of their minds that it could be/is morally wrong. The Santika night club fire is a prime example. There is such a massive web of police corruption, falsification of documents and death that the whole episode is being swept into a neat, quiet pile as I type this message.

This post has been edited by mbk: 28 February 2009 - 05:59 PM

mbk, on 2009-02-28 16:49:55, said:

I'm afraid it is a universal human problem, mbk, not really specific to Thailand.
The reason the human race succeded as well as it did.
And the reason it won't last long enough to leave any mark on a universe time scale.

That may be, but there are degrees of difference. The poster above, teruchan, was asking why countries like Korea, China and Singapore appear so further advanced than Thailand. Thailand really has no excuses, especially when compared to countries like Korea, Vietnam and China that have suffered quite badly in recent decades. Thailand has enjoyed fairly peaceful circumstances and abundant resources in comparison. I think Mandrake's point is that Thailand has rested on its laurels and squandered prime opportunities to progress.

I don't think it is a universal problem. You are from Belgium which has culture significantly similar to the Scandinavian culture. The degrees of corruption in these nations is far lower and their populations well taken care of.

teruchan, on 2009-02-28 17:28:06, said:

Compared to China, Thailand is much better off, the living standard is better and the income is higher.
Therefore we cannot say China made advances while Thailand did not.

Thailand is fairly good off comparing its neighbours... Laos, Cambodia and not to forget the worst, Myanmar.

China made some advances in the past, however this was done widely out of obligatory Japanese investments due to the Japanese-Chinese peace treaty. Many parts of China are by far more primitive than any remote village somewhere in Thailand.

South Korea - advances are relative, comparing the work and productivity of its citizens - but North Korea is also Korea and remains an international headache.

Singapore is a tiny island, and Greater Tokyo has about 8 times more people than this 'mini-country', it's more a city and not a country, and problems many country usually have, do not exist in Singapore, like agriculture related problems.

There are many other reasons, not only political reasons, why some countries are doing better than others.

This post has been edited by yohan: 01 March 2009 - 12:51 AM

yohan, on 2009-02-28 10:48:26, said:

I trust that this poster has never been in China. I will freely admit that I have never been in Thailand. But I have traveled extensively in China and China has world-class cities such as Beijing, Guangzhou and Shanghai, with many others highly developed as well. The infrastructure of China is outstanding, state of the art airports and high-speed rail at the top of the list. Even the western economies are looking to China to help pull everyone out of the global economic mess. Will Thailand help too? Will Thailand be hosting the Olympics soon?

China does share with Thailand the problems of official corruption. But whatever one may think of the communist leadership of China they do have a way of making things happen and keeping the country moving forward during the last 30 years of amazing development.

rogerluli, on 2009-03-01 03:01:53, said:

The world bank is listing China as No. 132 - income per year/person USD 2360,- - You have to consider its huge population.

You have been in Beijing? OK, then take a car and drive 30 km to 50 km outside of Beijing and take a look how people are living there and check about the labour conditions... You have to see the country as a whole, and not only some cities along the coastline and the center in Beijing...

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Sounds like Communist propaganda...

As we have seen with SARS, medical care is a major problem in China. Free information is also a major problem when considering all these troubles about food production safety standard.
Not to talk about internet censorship itself.

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You have to see the other side of the story, too.
Communist China is collecting money out of profits from foreign countries, but is not distributing it back to its own people.
(just see the economic figures, huge currency reserves and only USD 2360,- per person/year for the Chinese citizen)
Now China has the choice, either to do something, or all these foreign companies from Europe to Japan will shut down the production in their Chinese factories and will send 100000s of Chinese workers jobless in the streets.

Try to change USD in China in a small city - any problem? I don't think so.
And now take the Chinese Yuen (you are even not expected to bring these bills to overseas) and try to change it into USD in a small city somewhere in the USA.

And one more comment: Show me a country, which is accepting any Chinese with his passport but without any careful visa-procedure. And then look at the Japanese tourists, who are travelling around in China...visafree, of course.

This post has been edited by yohan: 01 March 2009 - 10:37 AM

China and Thailand are very similar. There's tons of corruption in both, but China has the backs of well over a billion people to stand on, while Thailand has around 60 million. No comparison.

Either way, Thailand's had a pretty damn rocky century where a lot of advancements have been made. Either the country will come out of this current crisis better, as I already believe it has, or it'll stagnate.

Comparisons are easy enough to make, but I believe that the point of this thread is not to compare Thailand to other countries, but to decide whether Thailand 'could have been so much better.' Thailand definitely could have been so much better. Hypothetical could haves are largely irrelevant in a Thai logic context. The future is what is more important, however the odd thing about Thai thinking is that even the future isn't all that important. Here and now is what it is all about.

This post has been edited by mbk: 01 March 2009 - 01:45 PM

I will admit I have never been outside the major centers like Beijing and Shanghai in China, but based on the first post, it sounds like the best Thailand has to offer cannot even come close to what is available in the top echelons of Chinese life. I don't know what things are like in the country or remote villages, so I can't comment on that, but based on my limited experience, China has come very far and the laundry list of problems Mandrake writes about Thailand seem nonexistant in the areas I stayed. If you say, however, that Thailand also has a few pockets of perfection, then I could see it being said they are similar, but this isn't the first negative writing about Thailand I have read here, and it sounds like Thailand is quite a bit behind China in many respects.

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Or worse...

Mandrunk, on 2009-02-27 00:47:46, said:

Let's see...

3 decades ago, for Thailand still a visa was required for all European citizens even for a short visit. You got 14 days.
Some few banks were willing to change your traveller cheques.

Politically seen Thailand was able to stay away from genocide in Cambodia, from Vietnam War and could avoid direct confrontation with reclusive Myanmar.

Economically seen, Thailand is by far better off than neighbouring countries of Myanmar, Laos and Cambodia, and also much better off than Vietnam, Philippines, China ...

For the Thai people living conditions improved. Housing prices are still moderate. Plenty of goods available in supermarkets etc. for all daily needs. Highways are in good condition, ATM and phonelines are operating.
Plenty of construction places in Bangkok disappeared, has subway now and skytrain.

Of course a lot of money was wasted by politicians, but this is everywhere like that.
You can say the same about every country, from the richest to the poorest...

Since you seem to have an excellent perspective on the current state of Thai affairs, possibly you could answer the question that, for the last several months, has been bothering me incessantly?

When I was in Chiang Mai in late October of last year(when I discovered that the city is where I want to be, permanently) the local people were bemoaning the the potential affects of the GFC(Global Financial Crises) would have on their livelyhood!

I said to myself, great(not for the potential suffering of the people, however!), that means the government will almost be forced to liberalize or even, possibly, do away with the convoluted, illogical and unreasonable visa laws to make it easier for foreigners to visit and/or live permanently in Thailand(especially to eliminate the "Baht Dowry" requirement for retirement visas which is unique on planet earth, I believe!)in the effort to bring in more money to offset the expected drop in tourism.

I almost "dropped dead" when I heard that the land entry visa rules had become more restrictive and. possibly hearsay, the overall attitude of immigration officials who deal directly with foreigners had become more "p*ssy", if you will!

I thought isn't that the classic case of "cutting off your nose to spite your face" and puts Thailand in what I would consider a "4th world" status of countries!

What I can only perceive this is a result of "mixed bag" of dislike(or outright hatred), jealousy and unappreciation for a long history of foreign investment that made Thailand a diamond bordered by coal dust!

Why?

Thai tendencies are to raise prices when things are bad - thai logic at work.

IMO the events of 1997 are still being felt throughout all aspects of Thailand economic, political and social life. It has never quite recovered from that shock, and there are alot of negative aspects from that peiod still being played out.

Thailand created the crisis and the IMF turned it into a disaster.

I guess it's convenient to forget who was largely responsible for getting Thailand out of the IMF mess, and getting the country back on the road to progress. Ironically enough, this is related to the topic, 'Thailand could have been so much better'.

To Lexb: Thailand has a somewhat ambivalent view of foreigners, I suspect in an ideal World Thais would like foreigners to spend their money without actually setting foot in Thailand. Maybe because they worked so hard to avoid colonisation by either the British or French they retain a deep fear of creeping colonisation, hence the heavy restrictions on property and business ownership and the difficulties involved in staying long term. They would like you to visit, spend your money then bugger off.

But then again why should it be any easier to come and live in Thailand long term than it is say in the UK, the EU or the US?

As for the original question posed "Thailand could have been so much better", I'd question whether it could and still be Thailand. I agree with Yohan, I generally think Thailand is plodding along at its own pace in roughly the right direction. It isn't Singapore or Malaysia neither is it Laos or Vietnam, it's Thailand.