Teaching English In Asia

MekhongKurt, on 2006-05-16 00:26:28, said:

I could really use some career advice here. I just finished 4 years of animation school and while it is only my 1st year working as a proefessional animator I'm only pulling in about 43K a year. . and this is in Canada were at least 20% of it goes to income and sales taxes. Also I am working long hours and don't get much in way of human interactions. (And everone I talk to thinks I have the coolest job haha!)

Mekhong. . your situation in Macau sounds like a dream job to me! I'd love to live in parts of China or Taiwan and teach at a university level. . and your tax free salary and benefits are great, considering the lower cost of living in China (as long as you can avoid those casinos in Macau!)

I'm sending out resume to chinese animation companies this week. . Because I want to live and work there. But realistically now I'm thinking maybe I better go back to school and change careers!!

Mekhong. . do you NEED an MA in English to teach at university level? Will a BA do? How long to get your MA in english.. .from the time of your freshman year? Is it 4 years? I"m 28 years old now and the thought of doing 4 years is a little intimidating. Although I'm sure I could get good marks in this subject.


Jack. . is it hard to start a business in China? I had pondered perhaps starting an animation training school there. . because they don't have any quality animation schools in China. .and it is affecting the quality and scarecity of talented animators there. Their animation industry is going to be HUGE there. But I imagine there is a mile of red tape to cross if I wanted to start an animation school or animation production company there. From what I've seen. . business in China is completely different from business here.

So what do you guys think? Should I go back to university? Or try and make it as an animator? Either way I ultimatly want to end up working in CHINA.

Daniel (quarter-life Crisis!)

Hi Daniel - this is a digression from the main topic, but anyway. Guy Delisle, who I think is a French-Canadian, spent several months in Pyongyang, North Korea, overseeing animation work for the Chinese market (and some American stuff, I think). He wrote a graphic novel about this experiences called 'Pyongyang: A Journey in North Korea'. It's a humorous take on the Kim cult and an interesting look inside one of the weirder corners of global outsourcing. I think you'd enjoy it.

Edit: I see on the Wikipedia entry for Guy Delisle that he also wrote a graphic novel called 'Shenzen'. Should also be worth looking at.

This post has been edited by Orang_Puteh: 31 July 2007 - 10:50 AM

Hello, Daniel:

I should clear up a few points right away. Unless you have housing provided fully or to considerable degree (the latter having been my case in Macau), living anywhere in China is no longer cheap. Real estate prices in Macau, Hongkong, and all the major cities in the mainland proper have been soaring. It *is* true you can eat inexpensively, even in decent, indoors, air-conditioned (or heated) restaurants, and even more cheaply by eating street food. But street food is something one has to approach slowly, to give your body time to adjust; my doctor told me it has to do with "absorbing" and adapting to the local microbes, etc.

Next, while the teaching salary I had was tax-free when I was in Macau (1990-94), that's no longer the case. Friends still there tell me all civil servants (which employees of the several institutions of higher learning in Macau are) pay 15% income tax.

If any of the schools in Macau employ intructors in animation I'm unaware of it, but by all means check their openings on their websites.

Hongkong does have animation studios, I believe, though I have no idea their attitudes to employing foreigners. The universities are difficult. For one thing, the educational requirements are generally high. By the way, I could not have taught in Macau had I not had an M.A. and considerable teaching experience already. Another thing about Hongkong universities is that, perversely, the lower one's academic rank the less aid the teacher gets for housing. Hongkong is so expensive I couldn't consider going there; the only decent help given is to professors, and even lower-ranked ones don't (or used not, anyway) do so hot on the housing allowance.

Inside China itself might be another matter. When I went there in 1985, though I had just received my M.A., several of my colleagues were newly-graduated holders of bachelor degrees -- and some of them where Bachelors of Science degrees, yet they taught English. As for animation studios, while I can't point you towards any, I have read articles and seen news stories on the tube about the growing field of animation in Asia. Think, for instance, of Japanese anime cartoons and the popularity in Japan of comic books -- even among adults. And the Japanese export a lot of anime to other countries in Asia. (My neighbor, a 30-something Thai lady, goes nuts with pleasure when she gets the chance to see anime cartoons on TV, even if they haven't been dubbed into Thai, which somethimes is the case.)

One question you'll have to research yourself is whether you need local language skills and, if so, to what level. In urban areas this isn't such a problem in daily living, but some employers might require some considerable degree of fluency in the local lingo. I plain don't know.

You also should target some locales in your mind, then research the dickens out of them, especially cost-of-living. And be very, very thorough on that, as the figures provided are often misleading (if not intentionally so). For instance, surveys targeting business executives' costs of living invariably come in way high -- but such surveys are for the Upper Crust, not an underling like me! Of course, that also means finding out what the things you like, particularly routinely, cost in those locales so you can compare them against an income you can reasonably expect to earn. For instance, I know teachers here who live just fine on their university salaries of US$600-700/month [at current exchange rates] and save a bit of money. But they don't like to go out -- pretty much anywhere, anytime -- rent single-room "apartments," sometimes with no aircon, no phone, and a cold-water Thai-style (squat) toilet down the hall. I'm somewhere in the middle. Heck, I don't have the resources to live like a high-flyer, but I wouldn't choose that anyway. But I do go out every day, have a few drinks, fairly often eat out (if sometimes just inexpensive street food, which is abundant here), and I travel regionally fairly regularly, so a teacher's income plain wouldn't cut it for me here, even were I willing to go back into it in Thailand (which I most assuredly am not).

Be particularly wary of "employment brokers" -- unscrupulous ones abound. Though this isn't directly related to money questions, many employers, even perfectly legitimate ones, want you to e-mail a photocopy of your passport's ID page right at the start -- something I decline to do. If they show some genuine interest, I'll be happy to give them a copy, but probably by courier instead of e-mail (or deliver it myself). Also be wary of any employer wanting to hold your passport throughout, say, a probationary period. In some countries you could be in deep dookey if your employer had your passport and you got into even a minor sticky wicket with the local authorities and they demanded to see your passport. (There are ways, sometimes, to satisfy both; here in Thailand I can take my passport and a copy of the ID page and visa page to Immigration, where they will stamp the copy after comparing it to my passport. Or so I've been told. And that, supposedly, is legal ID here.)

I'd be curious to know how it goes for you -- and good luck. Hope this helps a bit.

Mekhong Kurt
Bangkok, Thailand

This post has been edited by MekhongKurt: 01 August 2007 - 11:17 AM

MekhongKurt, on 2007-07-31 21:11:13, said:

Mekhong, thanks for clearing that up!

It is truly hard to get an idea of what sort of wealth people are making in Asia teaching English. I have a friend in Taiwan who was working (with a fake BA) and telling me he is having a blast.. lots of travel and vacation time. . light work week etc.. and making up to 4000$ US a month teaching english to young children and babies, if he does private tutoring on the side. I suspect he was exaggerating his pay quite a bit!

So I appreciate your reality check. Actually I had forgotten that Macau and HK are NOT mainland China and have rental and real estate prices closer in to those of major western cities. So that combined with 15% income tax. certainly paints a different picture.

Mekhong I deduce that you have moved on from teaching into some other form of employment in Thailand?? Can I ask what you do now??

I am sending resumes to many animation companies in China right now. . but my focus is on computer animation. Japanese style Animé is great..but it is not something I have much training or experience in. I relies on a lot of classical cel by cel drawings. Unfortunately, in North America you can no longer get a thorough training in those classical methods because it is simply to laborious and costly to rely on hand drawn cel animation. The western industry has moved almost entirely onto the computer. But "Ratatouille", shows that they are capable of some works of art in American animation.

OK an interesting story: In April I was flown out. . all expenses paid from Canada to a job interview for an animation company in Wuxi. . (a city outside of Shanghai). I wanted just to have a phone interview but they insisted in flying me out there. Anyways things seemed to go well and when I was leaving he asked me how soon I could move to china. .and we drafted a contract for 10,000RMB/month plus many vacations and a paid once yearly return flight and vacation to Canada. Sounded great! He was the one suggesting I request that salary and he added those perks without my asking. he just had to run it by the boss lady and would send me the contract. .

Anyways weeks go by and I never received it. . and if I call he just says. . oh yeah yeah . . your contract . . I will email it to you soon! but I could sense he was just bullshitting me and trying to save face. . Infuriating because I prefer to be told the truth why they did not hire me so I can improve myself.. but that is not the chinese way.

Anyways I am suspicious of their motives for flying me out there. .. . The governor of that province just happened to visit the facilities while I was there working away. . . who knows... business in China seems to be all about putting on a good horse and pony show for the right bureaucrats.. .. all flash and often not much substance.. . . They had incredibly expensive moder facilities. . yet had barely produced any work yet! In Canada. . most new animation companies like that can only afford to work out of windowless basements of old buildings. These facilities where state of the art. . HUGE... and mostly all the buildings were empty. . the grounds crew, security and support staff outnumbered the animators by quite a lot!

But I'm giving it another try. . sending resumes to China.. because I enjoy the people and I admit it. . the prestige of being a foreigner there. I'm working on teaching myself mandarin. but have a ways to go. .. it may indeed be a big barrier.

OK so I won't try to get an MA in English just yet. . I'll try this animation thing some more and see what happens first.

Daniel

MrFantabulous, on 2007-08-01 11:15:42, said:

Here's another possibility: get a job teaching English in China then spend time looking for work -- maybe on a freelance basis -- in computer animation. In the cities at least, pay normally isn't lower than about RMB4,000 [about US$530]/month plus housing, furnishings, and utilities for free, sometimes with free Internet access, insurance, light workloads, etc. And the pay fairly regularly can run upwards of double that, and on rare occasion even several times that. A good place to look is at Dave's ESL Cafe, which has a dedicated China board, at http://www.eslcafe.com. (No affiliations other than as an impressed user.)

I assume you can do this work over the Internet, too; if so, then you could freelance from afar.

As for me, I came to Thailand to teach, but finally got into a position I could "self-retire" at 46. Disgusted, I did exactly that. Now my "work" is a Bangkok-oriented nonprofit website I own and run. But I'm thinking about doing another round of teaching, preferably in the mainland, especially near Macau and Hongkong. I love China. even if my Mandarin at its peak was what might be called "Advanced Tourist Mandarin" -- and even that rusty as heck! (Still can do the most essential things, such as ordering a beer! )

BTW, your friend in Taiwan may not be exaggerating at all, from what I hear. Though that much isn't very common, I gather.

Keep us posted.

Mekhong Kurt

This post has been edited by MekhongKurt: 01 August 2007 - 01:33 PM

Most of the young foreigners here in Lanzhou stay for quite some time just for the lifestyle. The pay is good considering one generally works less than twenty hours a week and the nightlife can be rather entertaining.

As for starting a business here. My experience is that you need to know someone. I'd go with that recommendation of getting a teaching job first, woo the locals with your charm, make some good contacts and then you can get stuff done. I have a friend from Canada who's in the oil business. It's fair to say that he's loaded and while everyone wants a piece of that it's also not been easy for him to get his business off the ground because it's all who you know here.

If you want to teach, stay away from the universities. They'll suck up your time and the pay isn't great. Find a small school, Dave's Esl Cafe is an excellent choice to look, and make sure they provide you with housing and what-not. Then, take it upon yourself to make contacts. Spend time hanging out where the local business guys hang out. If you're not just another amusing monkey for them then they'll take you seriously and provide you with more work.

This has been a great discussion. It's an option I've thought about myself from time to time, but I've always been busy with other things.

Where do you think the most money is to be made teaching in Asia these days? Back in the 80's there were fabulous stories about people striking it rich in Japan, but I haven't heard anything like that in recent times. I think maybe South Korea is going through a similar boom at the moment.

Also, what do you reckon the ideal set of qualifications for someone who wanted to make a go of this would be?

ROFL. Me and Jack here can probably write a novel on why not to come to China with that idea. I have been home for a month and the fresh air, drinkable water, hot baths, clean public places, and healthy/clean food make it seem like paradise.

You just got out of school, so you are probably much BETTER off working in the local area or go to the west coast like Cali or Vancouver for the animation scene.

Don't expect to be the fab 5 life style here. It requires a lot of currency just to stay at the current life styles that some of the average North American families live. China is still dirt poor. Some farmers make $200 US a Year. The leather jacket I bought last year on 50% discount is still worth much more than that.

It's ALL about WHO you know in China. You'll be surprised the amount of doors opened when I was working in Hangzhou for a while and told people who my boss were. Party secretary. If you know anything about China, you will realize the amount of power that holds, and I didn't. It was the most enlightening experience.

As for your salary, expect the monthly salary range around 3-6000RMB, which is 400-800 US a month. My life style in Beijing is as spartan as I can get, and I was spending 5000RMB a month. Then again, I do live in Beijing, and I haven't started counting rent. I do teaching for fun since it's nice to have someone look up to you, but it's VERY hard to make it a good living unless you live outside of the 4 major cities and the living costs are MUCH cheaper. I have my business and teaching is good for me to practice my presentation skills.

As for animation, don't expect to get hired in China, unless it's for publicity reasons. If that's the case, expect to be paraded around town like a side show.

I tell this to all the people who are seriously considering here, Don't expect China to be the golden land that will solve all your problems. Tibet is suppose to be the Shangri-La, and look what Chinese did to it.

And if you want some real advice? Go see a good Career consular. Sit down, talk with him or her on what you really want to do. I am Canadian too. I see a lot of people like you in China. Most of them come back after 3-6 months. Life is VERY different around here.

As for the teachers that really makes money? Those Montessori guys/gals. They make US dollars and British pounds. That's the real money there. Make foreign dollars and spend RMB. RMB is useless anywhere else anyway.

As an animator, I am sure you are aware of the amount of work that is farmed out to China. Guess why? Cheaper. Can you, without any social or financial support live with their wages while learning the language?

Sorry for the cold shower, but having high expectations of China is like the AT&T. They spent millions courting the Chinese and in the end the Chinese never bought a single switch. And never be the old Macdonald-Douglas. In the end, all they got was bankruptcy.

10 Commandments for Westerners in China

Commandment #1

Know what you don’t know – (for many westerners, this is by far the most difficult challenge.). Any similarities between China and “back home” are purely accidental. This is a completely different culture. Do not be fooled by surface similarities or by local people who “seem to get it”. Sources of reliable information are your #1 asset.

Commandment #2

China is still a communist country - and there is absolutely zero chance of that changing any time soon.

Commandment #3

You have to show up to win. You must be physically present and put in the “face time”. There is no “autopilot” in Chinese business. If you feel that you are too busy to learn about China, then you are certainly too busy to be successful here.

Commandment #4

If things worked well here in China, then there would be significantly fewer opportunities for competent westerners. Try not to get too frustrated by the challenges you face.

Commandment #5

Time does not mean money here. Chinese business people do not believe in “opportunity cost”. Even simple negotiations can drag on for a long time. Avoid getting sucked into an endless cycle of meetings that don’t accomplish anything.

Commandment #6

Truth, honesty, good-will and long-term benefit are all culturally-specific concepts. Don’t expect your western standards to carry over here. Win-Win is not standard operating procedure here. Do not fool yourself that your long-term relationship with a local partner means anything.

Commandment #7

Don’t check your brains in at the border. You wouldn’t hand over your company’s money, intellectual property or trademarks to a virtual stranger in Sydney, London or San Francisco and expect to make a windfall. Don’t do it in China. The people that are offering to open doors for you are the same ones that can lock you out. Beware of people who peddle their “powerful friends and great connections”. They can use them to hurt you as well as help you.

Commandment #8

Due Diligence becomes more important when the language and systems are unclear, not less important. Don’t settle for the “least worst” deal or partner. Partners don’t get more honest and relationships don’t improve as the amount of money involved increases.

Commandment #9

China will still be here next year, and in 5 years. Don’t be pressured into signing a contract or making a deal because you are afraid of “missing the boat”. The boat has been here for 4,000+ years.

Commandment #10

Having a sense of humor helps. Having a Plan B helps even more.

These commandents are both succinct and invaluable. With your permission, I'll reprint them on my own website.

Mekhong Kurt, Webmaster
http://BangkokAtoZ.com

Hmm, thanks for the reality check!

Again I would not come to China for the purpose of making or saving money. Actually here are my reasons:

1. I have been living in Ontario, Canada for most of my 28 years. I"M BORED!!! Also I prefer hot weather to 8 months of miserable cold weather.

2. I want the education and adventure of living/working in a foreign land, learning a foreign language.

3. My last girlfriend was Chinese. I really am more comfortable around Chinese/Taiwanese women. I'm pretty sure that my future wife will be Chinese. Many Chinese ladies also like foreigners.. so if you like gold. . .go to the goldmine! (sounds bad! I'm not looking ot be a player.. just meet the right girl)

4. I want to gain more experience working in 3D animation (only doing 2D right now). Toronto mainly is focused on the less costly 2D animation for TV series. Also I think it would be good to make many Chinese animation contacts with the long term idea of running a small production studio there. (from what I've seen so far the current Chinese animation studios are bloated, over-funded and non profitable, with giant state-of-the art facilities and huge security, grounds crews and support staff. usually they don't have much to show in terms of actual shows or work done. . It's really ridiculous!! In Toronto we work out of windowless building basements unil as such a time as the company has enough shows and contracts to move to nicer facility.. And that takes a lot of success to get there.


Anyhow you guys are right. . . Sadly enough.. I can make much more teaching english in China than I could working as an animator in China (which requires more training and skill than teaching english). If you are going to be working in China it is best to be a business manager or CEO.

As someone mentioned. . going to china to teach English and then doing online freelance animation work for North American companies.. seems like a great idea!! I'll look into that.

So there you go . . I HAVE to go to China for 1 year at least. . . just to get that desire out of my system! Maybe after that I will be more grateful for my Canadian life and privilege. After all there must be a very good reason SO many Chinese come here to study and live.

Right now I am thinking I will go teach in TAIWAN. I have some friends there. They accept BA's or college diploma + TESOL combo. . The BA's will get the best jobs over me (I don't have a BA). . but TW has cleaner air than china . . maybe more boring there. . but a nice semi-tropical island. And great place to learn mandarin. So I'll try to teach there and freelance in animation. . for Canadian animation companies.


Thanks for the feedback!
Daniel

Starseeker, on 2007-08-01 04:29:36, said:

Hello, Daniel --

Better think again if you think a mere year will get China out of your system -- it's infectious. Roger on the Chinese ladies; I love 'em all, even in my "eld" at 56 years old. (LOL)

Mekhong Kurt
Bangkok, Thailand

yeah, but not all chinese women love us monkeys...

*... the ten commandments are not mine, found them myself, can't remember where...*

Aye, there's the catch... If I get into a relationship with a Taiwan or Chinese girl I can kiss my career goodbye and will have to switch to teaching English. . .unless she wants to move to Canada.. . but her job prospects would be slim here... AH I am the master of worrying about things that haven't even happened yet!!!

jackslittlefancies, on 2007-08-01 00:48:29, said:

Hmmm I don't think I would be one to stay long in Lanzhou very long. .. apparently it is one of the most polluted cities in the world because it is hemmed into the mountains with no free airflow..and many petroleum refineries.

Yeah I can relate to being an "exhibit" for Chinese business types. I experienced that in Wuxi.

I think if my mandarin comprehension was better it would be less likely to happen!

Interesting about the universities.. I thought they would be far better than teaching English to babies. But I guess they have longer hours and similar pay. Someone told me that you don't' even need a BA to teach at some of the universities. . . the less famous ones.

D

While lanzhou can indeed be dirty and void of typical landmarks for the viewing pleasure, the air has been cleaned up remarkably well in the last few years and every kid that bounces around China always comes back to this s#*t hole... it's the people or the water, or both...

Starseeker --

You've given some excellent advice. I have had job offers in the past because of who I knew -- and I don't mean anyone well-known locally, even, but people with an inside track to decision-makers.

Then there's the point a number of people have made forever: "Here lies the Western fool who thought he could ou-'Orient' Asians. [What *is* the politically correct term for Asians these days? I can't seem to keep up, even living in Thailand and having lived in China and Macau!]

Another point Westerners have troubl;e grasping is the sense of time in a business context. Anytime I had to meet a Chinese official of any university in which I taught, I knew we would spend up to mayge 30-45 minutes sipping tea and exchanging pleasantries and small talk before getting down to the real point of the meeting -- and that was even though I wasn't exactly high-ranking. Oh, yes, in the mainland I was classed as a professor -- but a foreign one.

Anyway, in Daniel's case, I imagine if he is able to establish contact with the right people he better count on a number of LONG nights in restaurants, karaokes, and days at historiric sites!

Nice avatar, by the way!

TizMe, on 2007-07-27 18:57:11, said:

Yes, indeed! Just noticed your post then saw my own typo. Make that June, 2000 -- with the extra zero!

A few more words of wisdom:

Don't work for public schools, the pays are usually Sh*t, topping out at around 6000RMB = around 900 CAD = 800 USD. They usually try to sell the room + board + visa + flights contract. It sounds great on paper, but it's crap in reality. Visas are cheap, go grab a F in HK. Book your own flights to avoid any id theft problems. And living in a dorm with a 12am cut off on visitors, shared public bathroom, and tons of students knocking on your doors for advice/English help isn't my idea of privacy. If you want to do it, do it because you like volunteering. I usually classify it as doctors without borders type of jobs.

If you are a bachelor in Beijing, expect to spend 10,000-12,000RMB a months on living and rent. Any special nights out are extra. So you need to make more than that. Some people can get away with less by living in shoe boxes or sh*t holes, but I don't recommend the experience.

There is no service in Beijing. Don't expect any and you will be pleasantly surprised. I just saw a foreign couple who sat next to us in a primo restaurant in Beijing tonight who left because they waited for more 3 mins before anybody will take their order. I laughed my a@@ off. Boy, would they be surprised when they go to a lesser restaurant in Beijing.

Oh, don't forget your gas mask and the oxygen tank, since it might come in handy when you really need fresh air.

Expect some kind of skin rash and quite a few toilet runs when you first arrive, and after that, you learn to eat at the right places and ignore the rash. Bring your own prescription meds. Don't expect to buy it here.

Ignore all invites to drink Bai Jou, and especially Ur Gou Tou.

That should be it for today.

here here about public schools.... nightmares....
but...
i'd have to disagree about
the baijiu...

drink it by the gallons!!!